I'll ignore the misguided thought process <G>. I agree with Tom; within your own organization is the best place to make that kind of transition. They already know you and know your work, so it would be a much easier transition. You can also talk to your DBA support staff and see what kind of environment they are working in (speaking of stress levels here, not servers), what openings might be available, etc.

I went the other way, from DBA of 5 years to PL/SQL developer.
Why?
No on-call (most often beeped while dreaming).
No having to put out fires (emergencies).
No 5x daily exporting and importing (boring).
Nothing creative about being a DBA - unless you count getting lucky when you "try something" to get your replication environment working again :)
Much more stress in general to be DBA.

There may be more DBA positions out there, as opposed to a PL/SQL dev, and the pay may be little more as a DBA. But it is worth not having to deal with the above.

I am many, many times happier now that I'm NOT a production DBA.

Steve

I moved from application support to an Oracle DBA position within the same organization.

previous reviewer (Steve) has many valid points. Lots of burnt outs, pressure to resolve the production problems (that too somebody standing behind you ... did I say standing.. no.. no.. sitting over your shoulders actually).Well, on the other side when the problem is fixed by you, you feel great.

Tom, however, I have seen this thing happening at many client sites that I have worked so far. (My intention is not to hurt the developers).
The application developer(s) develops a 'critical' application , enhances / upgrades it .The work done is directly visible to the end users (of the application) .Now, many times I have seen something gets screwed up(bug) in the application and the developer fixes it. And you know what happens next... Lots and lots of appreciation go to the developers for the fix done. (though that bug could have been avoided in the 1st place).

On the other hand the DBA maintains 'critical' database(s), ensures high availability and makes sure nothing gets screwed up at the database level. Things goes fine and all are happy, nobody sees the DBA's effort here. Now if something gets screwed up in the database because of the DBA / or by external factors. Everyone jumps and points finger at the DBA.

In short,

Developer => injected some bug => fixed it => final result is => Fixed bug+ Lots of Appreciation
DBA => injected some bug => fixed it => final result is => Fixed bug + No appreciation whatsoever

So makes me think...why not be a developer...

Not sure if other DBA's and sysadmin experienced this

Thanks,
Sasi

Each company seems to be a little different. I started as an ETL developer for the data warehouse. The ETL work allowed me to move into an application DBA position. My company has two different roles, system and application DBAs. As an application DBA I work with developers and make sure they writing good code. I take part in application design as well as debugging performance problems. I find the work to be fun. Some people do crosswords, I like tuning. The system DBAs do more of the work that people generally expect DBAs to do. I do handle some of that stuff but I am more focused on working with the developers. While technically I am on call more now, the databases don't require that much care. These are not small instances. We have 4 production instances accessing around 10 TB of data.

However, things were not always this way. It wasn't until around 3 years ago that management realized that most application developers really didn't have the denominator to do the database stuff. And so the application dba position was created.

Hi,

I am also a PL-SQL Developer who can also work as a DBA .

Most Developers find it hard to become DBAs because of their lack of Unix/Linux System Administration skills.

In my view, it is very easy for a Unix/Linux System Admin to become an Oracle DBA if they work together with an Oracle DBA.
This is even easier because in many Companies System Admins and DBAs almost always work together.

Experienced Oracle Developers already know most of the day-to-day DBA tasks, and so what they need is to first acquire System/Storage Admin skills and practice Backup and Recovery from Senior DBAs, and they are ready to become DBAs.

Big Companies can afford to hire separate DBAs / System Admins and Storage Admins, but many small Companies would require the DBA to also have System Admin skills.

Regards,

Pasko

Hi Tom,
Thanks for your follow-up.

Well, may be i shouldn't have said "most" of Developers, but "the Developer who wants to be a DBA"

If we take a look at DBA day to day tasks
(from Admin Guide 10GR2):

Task 1: Evaluate the Database Server Hardware
Task 2: Install the Oracle Database Software
Task 3: Plan the Database
Task 4: Create and Open the Database
Task 5: Back Up the Database
Task 6: Enroll System Users
Task 7: Implement the Database Design
Task 8: Back Up the Fully Functional Database
Task 9: Tune Database Performance
Task 10: Download and Install Patches
Task 11: Roll Out to Additional Hosts

In my view all of these Tasks require someone with Unix/Linux Administration skills.(May be also Windows Admin :) in addition to extensive Oracle Knowledge.

I also think that it will not be very difficult for an Oracle Developer to learn all of the above Tasks from an Experienced DBA/Sys Admin, because most of the Tasks such as those related to Installations/Upgrades/Migrations/Patch/Backup/Recovery only need to be learned once:
but only if DBAs were kind enough to transfer their knowledge to Developers :)

So another pre-requisite for an Oracle Developer to make the transition to the DBA Job is to be lucky enough to work with an experienced Oracle DBA who is also willing to transfer his/her knowledge to you.
Of course like Tom said, the first step is to talk to your Manager in order to be allowed in the DBA Team.

Hey Pasko, you got a real important point ;-)
"So another pre-requisite for an Oracle Developer to make the transition to the DBA Job is to be lucky enough to work with an experienced Oracle DBA who is also willing to transfer his/her knowledge to you."

Task 5: Back Up the Database

This requires sysadmin, ranging from knowing how to invoke rman to specific commands and procedures involved in snapping SANS.

Task 6: Enroll System Users

Might need to know about using the OS to control users.

Task 7: Implement the Database Design

Could be some issues going from logical to physical design.

Task 8: Back Up the Fully Functional Database

See Task 5.

Task 9: Tune Database Performance

How can this not look at system admin issues?

Task 10: Download and Install Patches

If you ain't got the perl, you ain't got the whirl.

Task 11: Roll Out to Additional Hosts

"Can I copy database files from Solaris to Windows?"

Hi,
I will like to add some of my own experenice in DBA work. I have been working as DBA both in development and production enviornments.
My experience with the production support was that a DBA just need to count the number of instances, review the init.ora parameters, check for backups and storages, monitor CPU and IO resources and make usre that instances are avialable 24*7. No need to see into the schemas and find what objects are lying in it for what purpose.

But when i entered the development projects i found out that it was a whole new world for the DBAs. Developers would rush to you for poorly performing SQL code, debugging of Pl/SQL(which is a weak area for almost all the DBA's, thats what i think), then DBA will need to tune the instance to get the maximum out of the DB server resources.

So the whole point is that i was able to do the tuning in a much better way when i started working on development projects. I was able to understand the impace on the applcation with RAID5 RAID10 ,Dual core CPUs. etc etc.

The outcome is that today i am more confident in handling the production systems, once i know how my applcation works and how the tables are accessed by the applcation. So in todays competitve enviornment it is important for DBAs to work as PL/SQL, SQL coder also and should know how to manage the DB within data centres.

I am on both roles together (DBA and developper) since some
years now and find it most satisfying.

There are definitely several tasks which cannot purely defined as "task for a DBA" because they touch both areas
of responsibility and should therefor be managed by both togeher.

Task 3: Plan the Database
should be done be DBA together with developper

Task 5: Back Up the Database
should probably be done be DBA together with developper

Task 7: Implement the Database Design
should definitley be done be DBA together with developper

Task 9: Tune Database Performance
should definitely be done be DBA together with developper

Task 10: Download and Install Patches
should probably be done be DBA together with developper

...

just my opinion !

Hi:

I am voting with Tom and Steve, being a developer is more fun and a lot less dangerous. You could be fired for one bad key stroke as a DBA, and that won't happen to a developer. As a developer you have more time to try stuff and you (should) have the resources. A lot of DBAs do not have equipment or the time to do a full test of the backups and, as Tom has pointed out again and again, when a tape drive goes bad, you want to find out before a drive crashes. Lots of good answers here, but I think the ones drives me away from being a DBA are the never ending risk that you might lose data, and companies that think that two DBAs can cover a 24x7 system 365 days a year, with 30 minute on-site response (I was applying for job with XM radio, and was told that I was "the first person to complain" when I suggested that two people and one beeper were not going to be enough. In the first place, beeper time is not ever compensated at even half pay. I had been working at a place where five of us shared the beeper and our boss (another dba) was available to back us up. If that was annoying, just two would be hell). For a developer a cell phone is a toy, to a DBA it is an instrument of the devil. I came to work one day and was told by a developer that he had talked to my boss and I was to move two database off the box he was working on because they were "bothering" him (never mind that what was bothering him was an error I had made in his enviroment setting it up, had nothing to do with other instances, and was fixed ten minutes after he told me what the symptoms were). I am sure that "the greener grass" applies to every case, but being a DBA is unrelenting, if you want to prove you can do it, have at it, but nobody will appreciate it as much as the price you pay will extract from you, surely not in cash, and you might want to spend some time with your familly and friends talking about the cool stuff you are doing and being able to down a beer without worrying that you might have to get into the car. Also, if I can get in one more, the "way cool" stuff like Unix and Sun boxes, can get tossed by managers with ant sized brains who want all the boxes to be the same color, whatever Microsoft likes. The theory is that if it gets dumbed down enough, a manager can do it after their lobotomy ("When do I get to push some buttons?" "Pretty soon now, I'll write the instructions out for you. I like to do that on the dash of my car, I'll go do that now.")

I should add that I do miss something about being a DBA: privileges.
If I need plan_table somewhere, no problem; if I need permissions given to a user, no problem; if stats need to be updated, no problem. If someone else needed something reasonable, no problem.
Now, it's like reasoning asking a brick wall for a cup of water when I try to get a few DBAs to do something, even in the face of logic and reason. (I'm a developer at a different company then I was a DBA.)
Examples:
Me: This plan_table is from 8.0 and we're on 9.2 now, can I have it updated?
DBA: It should work.
Me: I get an error about missing columns.
DBA: No one else is complaining.
Me: Is anyone else using explain plan?
DBA: <no response>

or

Me: Because of the way this db was "migrated" from 8.0 to 9.2, the data dictionary is not optimized and it would be a performance benefit if stats were collected on these tables. Metalink says if it needed it can be done.
DBA: It isn't recommended.
Me: Object loading is very slow when I use TOAD, 30 seconds to get a small package loaded in the editor.
DBA: It isn't recommended.
Me: Collecting should take less then 10 minutes, and if doesn't help or it causes problems we can remove them in 1 second.
DBA: It isn't recommended.
Me: It would be helpful.
DBA: It isn't recommended.


I don't know if this is igornance, arrogance, or both - but I would guess a 60/40 combo.


Steve

Steve - I think your current DBA works for my company as well.
:)

As a developer, I should have full and unfettered access to a development database where I can do R&D. If I screw it up - than it is my fault. Restore it from backup and let me continue my R&D. We get our DBAs that try and argue that we can't do things in development due to SOX - give me a break.

I expect our DBAs to reliable perform backups - test those backups and be able to restore as necessary. Typically we get messages a couple times a month about backup jobs failing - tapes no good - whatever. I always thought that a DBA's #1 job was to be able to restore the database when needed. Here - they just kick off a backup job. Never a thought about whether they could actually use the result to restore. As a developer - I shouldn't even have to think about backups and restores - I should be able to rest easy with the assurance that this is taken care of.

As a developer - I don't want to worry about what patches to install and keeping current with versions of Oracle. I want to be told in advance so we can plan. I want the change pushed through our various migration environments so we can test. But - I want the DBA's to take care of this. I don't need to deal with patches and such. I especially don't want to hear that we are having problems but our version is no longer supported. Come on - is it really that hard to stay within the "supported" arena?

I don't want DBA's trying to tell me how to do coding. That is for developer to do - not DBA's. DBA's that want to do coding - perhaps should become developers. I can understand - after all - being a developer is a heck of a lot more interesting.

As to the point the original poster (Yang) made about having trouble moving into a DBA role because he wants to learn from a senior DBA - well - how is that any different from somebody wanting to move into a developer role? I have seen some of the worst code and worst design by developers who clearly worked by themself with no senior developers. A good developer has a chance to work with more senior developers and learn the best way to do things. If the junior developer starts going down the wrong path - while thinking they are the next rocket scientist - the senior developer can step in and help them land back in reality. Some people are going to pick it up more or less naturally - some are going to need more guidance. Developer or DBA - I really don't see any difference on this particular point.

Overall - what does the A stand for in DBA? Administrator. Just doesn't sound exciting for me. Developer on the other hand - chance to create new things - yeah - that's cool.

"As a developer - I shouldn't even have to think about backups and restores"
I think a developer should be able to discuss with a DBA how, for example, time based partitioning could be used on a change history/audit table to assist backups/restores.
Also, as a developer you should know whether and how your development environment could be restored in the event of failure.

I'm constantly surprised to find that some people think DBAs just, well, "A". In fact, I don't think it's even possible to "A" without being a good developer as well. Developers should be able to ask the DBA about why their SQL isn't working well, or how to resolve a design problem. If the DBA isn't a subject matter expert, he or she will be useless for that sort of thing, and believe me, you don't get to know about such things unless you're actively involved with them on a daily basis. Plus, DBAs also have to write a fair amount of code as part of doing "A", anyway.

For myself, my DBA work been probably 50% development and 50% administration. The former consists of designing databases, working on architectural issues, and designing and writing code. I've also had to work on performance issues and development standards and procedures (yes, I tell the developers how to write SQL and PL/SQL; they're not all experts, and if I didn't, nobody else would). The admin side has involved everything from the mundane (like installations, doing backups, and cloning production databases into development environments) to the slightly more exotic (designing and setting up replication and HA environments, and system administration on Windows and Unix). I also manage development databases just as carefully as I would production databases. In most respects, I regard them as "production" as long as somebody is reliant on them.

A DBA is useless if they're unhelpful or intransigent. In Steve's example, the development DBA should have already known that the DB had performance issues, and should have known how to fix it. It's called "monitoring". There is much less difference between being a devlopment DBA and a production DBA than people think. In both cases, you have to stay on top of how well the database is running and know how to fix problems that arise.

Anonymous has a somewhat different attitude, and I have to say, not one that I'd put up with. He raised a few issues that I just don't expect developers to get without it being explained to them. Patches, for example. Does the DBA decide what gets patched and when? Sometimes; they may make recommendations, but often, management has problems with paying for licences. Or development has to be kept in synch with production, and there's a specific schedule for the latter, so development has to wait to fit into that. Or DB patches rely on OS patches, and we're running third-party product X that isn't compatible with those OS patches. Or the business can't afford the time and money to regression test our apps against the patched DB. Or some other part of our app has known problems with the patch.

In other words, patches are not trivial. They can cause problems, and for precisely the same reasons that DBAs should manage backups correctly - as Anonymous says - they should also manage patches correctly. The alternative is what I like to call "a painful learning experience".

In any case, I certainly wouldn't allow a developer to dictate the version that we use. The business does that. Developers and DBAs alike work with what they're given. (And the DBA may like it even less than the developers!)

On the other hand, I'd be happy give a developer "full and unfettered access to a development database", provided that (a) the resources were available, and (b) they had a good reason and had a reasonable chance of producing a good outcome. Unfortunately, resources often aren't available, and I don't often see situations where a project would benefit from a developer tinkering with some radical new ideas. Usually, once they explain what they want to try, I can tell them right away if it'll work or not. So I'd take some convincing that it would be worth going ahead.

"...I should add that I do miss something about being a DBA: privileges..."

Very funny post by Steve, above.

That is it for me in a nutshell - privileges.

As a DBA I have full control to quickly get through any roadblocks when I am doing any developing, testing, experimenting, etc.

It would be discouraging to go back to being a 'mere' Developer and have to be at the mercy of DBA's to give me the resources/help I need.

Since I came from Developer to DBA, I try to be understanding and sympathetic to Developers in this situation and do everything I can to help them in thier reasonable (and sometimes unreasonable) requests.

Steve's point is funny. I've seen that kind of thing too.
I just go straight over their heads at the first sign of that kind of thing. If you are a developer, take ownership of the application and fight for it when necessary.

Sometimes DBA and Developer have to be strictly separate.
At our shop I develop and the DBAs push it out into production when it is ready.
I have no rights except read in the production database.
DBAs never write code, and they don't approve mine.
Why? We collect taxes and the State Auditors would come completely unglued if they though anyone was able to push code they had written themselves into a database that collects hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes every year.
But I do have DBA rights in the development database.
Why not? We consider them disposable. Just restore a backup or, even better, a fresh copy from production.
So, I have my place to try things out and do quick fixes.
But it's not production and that's the way it should be.

"In any case, I certainly wouldn't ALLOW a developer to dictate the version that we use."
....
"On the other hand, I'd be happy to GIVE a developer "full and unfettered access to a development database"

You see those upper case words: ALLOW and GIVE ?
They mean.. Privileges! :)

DBAs and Developers should work together in a Team! .

Are we serious about this thread? ;-)

Any attempt to prove being a DBA is better than being a Developer, or vice versa, will be subjective unless you've been both. If you've been both, then your objectiveness will require you give each their respective due, since neither seems to exists without the other...

I was a developer (10 years) who became a DBA (15 years).

Both:
- take lots of work (not hard work, please, we type for a living, we don't shovel coal...)
- consume lots of hours for study and practice
- are well-respected, unless your a jerk who thinks you're better than everybody else because of your job title.
- require effective, productive communication and interaction with each other.

I prefer being a DBA because I:
- LOVE the pressure (get it right, NOW, or else... Whew! What a RUSH!)
- relish being the go-to person when the **** hits the fan
- enjoy the extra pay (not too shabby...)
- enjoy teaching (showing others how to tune, explaining what goes on behind the scenes)
- have better job security (last one out please turnoff the lights)

I still enjoy Developing code because:
- it's just so cool when you finally get it to work exactly the way you envisioned it working :-)

So, which job is better? Whichever one makes you feel best about yourself and your contributions.

I have technically spent most of my career as a developer. I was on a small project where I did alot of the DBA work on a large system because the DBAs were busy. So I learned more. Most of what I know about DBA work came from installing Oracle at home and messing around. Along with reading books/documentation, this website, oracle-l, etc...

I taught myself. The problem with most developers is that it is very valuable to learn how the database works even if you are not doing installs and running backups(this stuff is easy to learn).

your biggest in to the DBA world is know the oracle architecture and being good at performance tuning. Most developers don't know this and most DBAs don't know much about developing software.

I get interviewed and offered DBA jobs now as a contractor(and they want specific skill sets) because of my experience with performance tuning and orarcle architecture knowledge.

I get DBAs contacting me on how to do this. Been this way for several years. I am the DBA on my current job and I have never held the title of DBA. I will have to setup RAC and dataguard and I have no experience doing that(I can read the documentation).

Get overall oracle knowledge and you can move into anything.

As far as career goes. There is far more demand for an Oracle DBA than a pl/sql developer. If you are going to stay a developer you need to learn more than PL/SQL. Not that much demand for someone who can just do PL/SQL.

At the very high end of the Oracle market they want crossover skills. You really can do both, you just can't do it in a 40 hour work week. You have to teach yourself. Spend alot of time on message boards.

If you make yourself good and show interest, people come to you for help so you get the hardest problems. So then you learn more and you distance yourself from your peers.

so install linux and install oracle at home and start doing stuff. Start with the backup/rman docs. Write shell scripts to manage backups. Then break your database and practice recoveries. Then go from there.

The great divide, although prevalent in job descriptions, is not really a helpful thing in my opinion. I found DBA experience invaluable when learning about J2EE programming for instance, learning to understand the whole system and not simply treating everything outside your direct responsibility as a black box makes you a much more well rounded technologist.

Learn one core skill first, but then immediately start soaking up as much knowledge of the ¿other¿ as you possibly can and then make sure you spend some time on the ¿other side¿.

Technical problems are no respecters of job boundaries , it¿s about the sharing of responsibility rather than the partitioning of blame. The best teams are small composed of multi-skilled people.

Yang said "position of DBA is much more superior than Developer". Consider two aspects of this:
1. Size of business (IT staff)
2. Production responsibility
I would recommend Yang review this related question as well:
http://asktom.oracle.com/pls/asktom/f?p=100:11:0::::P11_QUESTION_ID:14039738984108#15675746031368
First point: In a small shop, a "DBA" may well "do it all" from Development through Deployment; each task is only a part-time job. Small businesses can be great places to work but payscales can be limited.

In a large development team, specialization and "separation of duties" becomes important: you see DBAs who only administer, recover and deploy; application developers who know little about the database; and a full-time team in the middle: data modelers, architects and database developers who link the application to the database. In my experience, you don't see this level of specialization until the overall IT organization has at least 100 people as staff.

Second point: As a modeler/architect, I never touch production except in "read only" mode. Production DBA is a uniquely-trusted, "superior" role. Developers go through an entire development lifecycle, with code reviews, stress-testing, and so on. Yet, I've seen a DBA accidently drop a production table (mistaking it for a develoment environment), spend days restoring the table, then get commended by management for their monumental effort. Life isn't fair. Production DBAs can keep the adrenaline rush, weekend work, and the beads of sweat that form when a mistake is made in a production environment.

i am an oracle developer,i tend to force my knowledge in oracle , but i meet the following tracks :-
* Database Administration
* Application Server Administration
* System Administration
* Oracle ERP Implemention

please i need more explain to choose the right path ....

thanks,

Ok,i learnt SQL,PLSQL,FORMS,REPORTS, and i got job , what is the candidate courses to me - development - in oracle ...... more details ........

For me, the ideal situation is to be a developer AND have DBA privs. It's nice to be trusted, and have friends in the DBA group willing to allow you to do your work.

Not that I couldn't have backdoor'd DBA rights anyway. ;)

I wonder what is the job function of a database architect?
Is it totally administration (doing physical design, storage, hardware, etc) or invloves in logical design, programming, etc...

On the other hand, I'd be happy give a developer "full and unfettered access to a development database", provided that (a) the resources were available, and (b) they had a good reason and had a reasonable chance of producing a good outcome. Unfortunately, resources often aren't available, and I don't often see situations where a project would benefit from a developer tinkering with some radical new ideas. Usually, once they explain what they want to try, I can tell them right away if it'll work or not. So I'd take some convincing that it would be worth going ahead.

I can tell them right away if it'll work or not.

Yes, there are some things that just don't work -- Read Tom's writings on the Generic Datamodel. But just WAY TOO OFTEN, someone tries something, once, doesn't read the manual, implements it poorly, decides it doesn't work, and tells everyone not to try it. Every DBA I've worked with, at one time or another, has told me that a verifiable technique I've read from Tom Kyte or Jonathan Lewis or Steve Feuerstein makes things slower, is a maintenance nightmare, or just doesn't work. I show them the webpage, journal article, book chapter and they refuse to acknowledge the authority of the sources or even to try it themselves. Afterall, they are far to busy and important and they can, "tell [me] right away if it'll work or not".

Maybe the DBA was right, in Version 7.

they had a good reason and had a reasonable chance of producing a good outcome.

Here we go again. I didn't know that DBA's were project managers responsible for a development budget. If the PM is willing to let his developers try to go done a dark path into uncharted territory, that's HIS/HER call, Not the DBA's. If the DBA is sooooo overloaded that standing up a dev database for a likely misadventure is a burden, then you should report that to the PM. "Hey, I can stand up your devenv, but the patch I have to do will be delayed because of it..." or whatever. You know, people can learn an awful lot through failure. If you've raised a child, you know that you have to let them skin there knees before they master riding a bike. Of course, you don't let them ride headlong into traffic... so there may be a few concession that need to be made to protect normal operations.

Your sentence should read like this...

"I AM happy to give a developer full and unfettered access to a development database"

and just end there. Anything more is hubris.

Hi, I see everyone has contributed the best part of their experience. I would like to add mine.

DBA - is not just an administrator.

dba is expected to be a developer, performance tuner, shell script developer, Web Administration, Trouble shooter possessing good knowledge in OS and so on and on and on.

As a first step, Anyone who is interested to become a dba has to work on his personal pc to gain hands on experience to an extent (technically) and should gain good knowledge of the following

SQL
Reasonable knowledge in PL/SQL (to understand the code)
Database Architecture and storage management
Init Parameters
types of tables,indexes and privileges
utilities such as exp, imp, SQL*loader, tkprof and so on
understanding of tkprof and statspack reports
Unix Commands especially filter commands and vi editor
Dos and Dont's from the general practice of the company

I suggest, try working on each solution and HOW-TOs rather than studying everything and trying one or two. Speak to experienced functional and non functional people and get a reasonable understanding of the application and linked applications.

I agree that it would be better to start the dba career in the present company. Alternatively, one can try getting into a very big organization where junior DBAs will be given a routine job for certain period and slowly trained to perform more and more of additional work. One would get a chance to observe, understand and learn the DBA tasks during this initial period.

It requires lot of learning and practice to be a DBA and one should not stop learning and practicing after becoming DBA.

I agree, it is boring sometimes, I invest my boring time to learn and practice new features, How-Tos and other areas of interest.

Example

Study the existing shell scripts to understand the method employed (approach taken).

copy and paste the existing SQLs (only SELECTs) at SQL prompt to observe the explain plan and statistics. Play around with oracle hints to observe the change in explain plan and statistics.

brows through the new features or untouched features of oracle.

and so on.

hope this helps.

Hi all,

developer >>> project manager
administrator >>> top administrator

then,

What is the best way in starting the job in a company ????

* start as a developer(expert) and then be an administrator
* start as a developer(basic) and then be an administrator
* start as an administrator(expert) and then be an developer
* start as an administrator(basic) and then be an developer

thanks,

What are you trying to maximize/minimize/optimize?

Do you want to increase your salary or decrease the time you spend working? Do you derive satisfaction from your job or can you show up and shovel manure for 10 hours and still be happy?

I remember the first day of Engineering Science 101. All the new freshmen wanted to know how much they could expect to make when they graduate. The professor said, "If you want to make a lot of money finish your BS in engineering then get an MBA and call yourself a consultant."

Yeh, but would you be happy doing that? Being on the road for months at a time, living out of a suitcase. If so, be my guest.

If you want to feel important, write 100,000 lines of undocumented payroll code. If you want to *be* important, find some skill you'd like to learn more about and your company is lacking and then become as fluent as possible in that skill and then pass as much of that to everyone else in the company who can benefit. That can be done in any position.

Mark Brady,

thanks for that advice , you is very close to me thought...
my problem....is the variety
I get addicted when i am open SQL*PLUS and write hundreds of code lines........and also with Java (Developer job)
and ,in the other hand, I completely like tuning/performance tools (Admin. job)

i got a job as developer(Forms,Reports), but I want *some* admin. functions but ,not all because there are boring work...

please direct me to the right roadmap to me

thanks,

So everyone talks about being DBA or Programmer.

I work for Oracle Corporation at EMEA. I am not even sure what is my role, my boss sent me to fix codes (so am I a developer?), define backup & recovery procedures, installing RAC (from two to six nodes and all sort of platforms), upgrades/migrations, architecture definitions, Oracle Applications Performance Troubleshooting, even have been sent to install a 14 nodes Oracle Application Server.

So let's call my type consultants? And I am pretty sure there are tons like me out there. :-)

I mean you cannot fix a code if you are not a programmer or be a DBA if you dont know about architectures...

Tom,

You recently wrote somewhere that your job changed at Oracle. Can you share at all what you do now?

After years of experience in working in four
different roles of C/C++ developer, Unix systems admin,
Oracle DBA and developer, Oracle developer, Oracle DBA,
I not only believe but I know that it is possible
for anyone to learn and do anything if one is willing
to pursue with passion. In the pursuit of knowledge,
there will always be some friends who will
help in getting up to speed quickly while there will
be some some folks who will always be reluctant to
teach and share their knowledge for whatever reason
best known to them.
So irrespective of the current role, dba or developer,
staying in touch with right people who are
willing to share their knowledge and experience, taking
a lot of inititative to learn which might mean
spending additional hours over and and above regular
job-hours and continuing to picture a smooth transition to the new role are the key factors one
will benefit from. Transition to a new role requires
a lot of initiative, stamina. If one has the determination, it is possible.
I wanted to post this because I enjoy my days as
a Unix/Oracle DBA and because of my solid experience
as a developer, I understand and fully cooperate with
developers since they are very talented and they play
a very significant role. Transition of an talented
developer to DBA will not be difficult at all if
one pursues with persistence -- never giving up even
if someone says " it's difficult". Nobody says that
path of learning and gaining new experience is an easy walk. But it's fun. Looking at all the great talents and history of advancement of science and technology, don't we feel proud that we humanbeings have learned so many things since the dawn of civilization and will continue to learn new things for ever.
Regards
Will

woah Tom! That's one busy schedule! Don't you get tired of traveling all over the world? wow..wow..wow..wow..

* Sep-11: A seminar in Dallas
* Sep-12: Seminar in Phoenix
* Sep-13: Oracle Technology day in Philadelphia (well, King of Prussia)
* Sep-24: The Toronto, Canada Oracle User Group
* Sep-25: The Ottawa, Canada Oracle User Group
* Sep-26: Ora*Gec day in Quebec, Canada
* Sep-27: Ora*Gec day in Montreal, Canada
* Oct-2: The Oracle BIWA Conference in Reston, VA
* Oct-9: The NOUG - somewhere near Boston, MA
* Oct-10: Oracle Technology Day - Hartford, CT
* Oct-11: Oracle Technology Day - Rochester, NY
* Oct-22: Oracle Technology Day - New Brunswick, NJ
* Oct-23: St. Louis Oracle User Group
* Oct-24: Oklahoma City Oracle User Group
* Nov-5: ICE Conference, Edmonton, Canada
* Nov-6: Greater Richmond, VA Oracle User Group
* Nov-13: Oracle Open World
* Dec-3: UKOUG in Birmingham, UK

i am a developer and i tend to be an admin ... are learning java is useful to me with that path ....

Reviewer: Mark Brady
What are you trying to maximize/minimize/optimize?

Do you want to increase your salary or decrease the time you spend working? Do you derive
satisfaction from your job or can you show up and shovel manure for 10 hours and still be happy?

I remember the first day of Engineering Science 101. All the new freshmen wanted to know how much
they could expect to make when they graduate. The professor said, "If you want to make a lot of
money finish your BS in engineering then get an MBA and call yourself a consultant."

Yeh, but would you be happy doing that? Being on the road for months at a time, living out of a
suitcase. If so, be my guest.

If you want to feel important, write 100,000 lines of undocumented payroll code. If you want to
*be* important, find some skill you'd like to learn more about and your company is lacking and then
become as fluent as possible in that skill and then pass as much of that to everyone else in the
company who can benefit. That can be done in any position.

-----------------------------------------------------

who is the best developer *ONLY* or developer with MBA degree , please because i thinking more and more in obtaining this degree .....

please .. i waiting your reply for long period ...

I have a dilemma. I am an Oracle DBA with about 3 years DBA experience and 7 years developer experience. I enjoy
being in control, arse kicking developers ;-), having full access and the ability to explore the intricacies of the DB. But now I am going to be offered a developer role in an investment bank paying me 14k more than what I am currently earning as a DBA. I know having my access cut down is going to literally strangle me ... what should I do?

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your advice. Time for the violins ;-) ...

When I was a developer our access was severely restricted on development. No access to v$views. If I wanted to get a trace file from UDUMP - the dba's never thought it was a priority to give me the trace files. From my perspective, I felt that hindered learning about Oracle. It's only from being a DBA that I now feel I have a good grasp of the DB.
Granted the roles of the DBA and developer are different and the skills are mutually exclusive - but I felt I only got "half the story" being a developer.

The on call thing isn't too bad as I am on a rota. There is the weekend work putting developers code in to production - that's not such a big deal...

14k comes in handy with having kids..but then I am going to lose whatever RAC, Dataguard and RMAN skills I have ... it's a hard choice...

I worked 25 years as a developer. 20 years primarily on mainframe applications, using COBOL, DB2, IMS, and IDMS. 5 Years ago I was first exposed to Client/Server Applications and Oracle. But, due to my mainframe experience I was always given the responsibility for most Legacy systems and loading COBOL flat files to Oracle tables. A few months ago an opportunity came up to be trained as an Oracle DBA and I jumped at it. Now after many years it's learning something new every day...and I have a better appreciation of how much of a pain ETL Developers can be.

Well I thought I would move from DBA to developer for the cash. Now I hate to get out of bed in the morning to go to work...Looks like I'll be moving back to an Oracle DBA as soon as I get the chance ...

With reference to the last followup
"I'm of the mindset that picking a career path because it "pays more" is the wrong approach. "

could be elaborate it for me

I am interested as i have just started my carrer

Hi,

We are in a state of comparing potato with tomato!
Let not compare at all.Both DBA and Dev. have their challenges,roles and responsibilities....and let not talk about salary again......Quite many other hot tools/technologies are there and they pay much more....

So choose your path as per your interest!!!!!

Ankit,

Tom's comment "I'm of the mindset that picking a career path because it "pays more" is the wrong approach" is based on experience. You said you're interested on following that approach because you are just starting on your career. After years of experience you will realize pay is NOT the most important nor the only factor that will drive your career path. You need to follow your passion regardless of how much it pays. Money alone will not make you happy if you don't love what you do for a living.

So, I agree 100% with Tom's comment.

'...If someone told me in 1987 that I'd make a living doing what I do now - I would have said "you are crazy - never will happen".... '

come on, you don't, do you ?
don't you evolute as well ?

I think I once heard you saying during the last years you were mostly working with customers, whereas now you share a responsibility concerning the architecture of the core development of the db-kernel, correct ?

I mean, I think, nearly nobody does "the same" for his/her career, everything is changing, everyone is changing, "Pánta rhei"

from this point of view, I hope every developper will be a dba from time and time and vice-versa

I think you can't be a good one of either kind without knowing what's the other side of the story is

Hi Tom,

How do you changing role of a Oracle DBA in global meltdown.Could you please elaborate with your vast experience in Oracle

Thanks,
Girish

I'm a developer for 4 years and now I'm a DBA for 8 months and counting. I shifted to administration for a lot of reasons: it pays more, I think they're higher than developers (controlling access and all), there are more need for DBAs, and lastly I really have no idea what a DBA job is like.

Now, I'm regretting it. All I do is check alerts and see that 90% of the time they are false alarms, doing mundane tasks like execute scripts given by developers to production. I support hundreds of databases at a time so I don't have time to focus on a server and analyze. I don't like it. It's boring.

When something bad does happen, it's on the opposite end of the scale. It is sooo stressful.

I wish I can go back to development. Despite a lower salary, or fewer positions, or the need to study more than just PL/SQL. That's what I enjoy. No rotation. It is more predictable than DBA in stress levels. I can more or less see an problem coming. For a DBA, it's full of surprises.

Grass is always greener...

Haha..it's interesting to see how my little comments have generated so much feedback! The market in the UK at the moment is more geared to Oracle Developers, than DBA's. The latter can be easily outsourced. I enjoyed my time as an Oracle DBA, learning about RAC/Dataguard etc was very interesting ...(..but it's more like..I've been there, done that ...) It's much easier to delegate than do it yourself ...If there's a production problem, it's not me being pinged in the middle of the night (it's someone elses problem) ...I'm enjoying the money, honour and prestige of Investment Banking. The projects are interesting and I am learning all sorts of new development ideas in Oracle! The experience I gained as an Oracle Production DBA was invaluable ...!

So, did it happen that your new salary was increased because of the increase when you went DBA?

I firmly agree with the idea that pursuing what you like is the best course over the long term, but it is also true that salaries are often arbitrarily set by previous salary. So even if you make the wrong decision, you can rollback to a similar job without necessarily rolling back the salary.

It might have helped ... DBA skills are always an invaluable asset ... but then having more cash on the hip is good too ;-)

I become DBA after having 7 yrs of development experience. Its been 3yrs now in DBA.
DBA position is superior to developer, i dont think so , I agreed with Tom here.
Both are 2 individual jobs with having different roles and responsibilities, it all depends on interest.
I dont enjoy DBA job , there is no logical work here, follow the document do the clone,upgrade,migration .
come during weekend ,come at night shift, sit for longrer duration if stuck in some production issue(which is always there)
,extend the shift for another 3-4 hours. High stress level,all mechanical stuff low level activity (check logs,give logs,enable trace,
do patching,bounce the application).
For upgrade you need to sit for more then 24 hours during the upgrade in weekend for all 3 instance,dev,test,prod .
And if something goes wrong your life is hell,
In DBA you dont get time for your family,kids no social life ,no time for you. You might get small amount more then developer which is not
always true. but it will extract a lot from you.
By EOL you will regret you decision. Think before change dont run for money , money is there in development also.
Do what you like to do which makes you happy.In my case we were 3 developer who switches to dba , and let me tell you we all the 3 are not
atall happy and planning back to our development track.
thinks twice before you change.

Tom:

it depends..

these are general statements.

One DBA might be responsible to adminster 100 huge databases while another might be in charge of a few small databases.

They are both DBAs but one is so stressed out that he hates it while the other likes it.

It is similar to marriage. It might be good or bad. People who are happy will tell you it is great. People who were unlucky will tell you to never do it.

At the end of the day, it is not what we like. We have to do whatever work is needed. I think a combination of DBA & Developer is the best. I agree though that Development is more interesting.

I was a production support person. Then I became a full time developer and then a dba. I am again back into support role. What a life!

what are the new challenge of the Oracle DBA and what is the task of Oracle DBA when they change company?